>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE'RE PRETTY CLOSE, BUT I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT UNTIL IT'S DONE.

>> ISRAEL AND HAMAS MEET IN EGYPT TO DISCUSS TRUMP'S PROPOSED CEASEFIRE PLAN.

IS PEACE FINALLY ON THE HORIZON?

I ASKED RENOWNED ISRAELI JOURNALIST ABOUT WHERE THINGS STAND.

>>> AND OUTRAGE OVER HEALTHCARE, UNEMPLOYMENT, AND CORRUPTION, A WEEK OF GEN Z LED PROTESTS SWEEP CROSS MOROCCO.

I SPEAK TO RASHEED AL KALFI.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN CONTINUES AS TRUMP PUSHES THE BOUNDARIES OF HIS EXECUTIVE POWER.

VETERAN WASHINGTON REPORTER SUSAN GLASSER WEIGHS IN.

>>> PLUS -- >> THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO COULD HAVE FOUGHT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND DID NOT.

>> ARE BUSINESSES SURRENDERING TO TRUMP?

ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER ADAM SEWARD TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY HE BELIEVES THEIR COWARDICE IS ERODING DEMOCRACY.

♪ >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE WARSHOFF, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA.

>>> WE BEGIN IN THE MIDDLE EAST AS KEY NEGOTIATORS FROM ISRAEL, HAMAS AND THE UNITED STATES ARE LOOKING TO FIND COMMON GROUND AND REACH AGREEMENT ON PRESIDENT TRUMP'S 20-POINT PLAN TO END THE WAR.

HAMAS AND ISRAEL HAVE BOTH VOICED SUPPORT.

HERE'S ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

>> WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF A VERY BIG ACHIEVEMENT.

IT'S NOT FINAL YET, BUT I HOPE IN THE COMING DAYS I WILL BE ABLE TO ANNOUNCE TO YOU THE RETURN OF ALL THE HOSTAGES IN ONE PHASE WHILE THE IDF REMAINS DEEP INSIDE THE STRIP IN THE TERRITORIES THAT CONTROL IT.

>> TRUMP SAYS THEY ARE "VERY CLOSE" TO REACHING A DEAL, BUT WHILE OPTIMISM GROWS HUGE OBSTACLES REMAIN.

THE DEMANDS FOR HAMAS TO DISARM AND FULLY CEDE POWER IN GAZA REMAIN HUGE ISSUES.

WHETHER THE MILITARY GROUP WILL ACCEPT THOSE CONDITIONS OF THE PROPOSAL IS UNCERTAIN.

MEANTIME THE DEVASTATION OF GAZA GOES ON.

AFTER MORE THAN TWO YEARS OF WAR MORE THAN 66,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED THERE ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS.

FAMILIES TORN APART ARE LIVING IN RUBBLE AND RUIN, MANY SUCCUMBING TO MALNUTRITION AS FOOD AND RESOURCES REMAIN SCARCE AND WITH 48 REMAINING HOSTAGES STILL HELD CAPTIVE, 20 OF WHOM WHO ARE BELIEVED TO BE ALIVE, PEACE CANNOT COME SOON ENOUGH.

TO DISCUSS EFFORTS TO BRING PEACE AND THE PRESSURE ON PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

IN AN INTERVIEW OVER THE WEEKEND, YOU'RE QUOTED AS SAYING TRUMP DOESN'T THREATEN NETANYAHU.

HE ORDERS HIM.

WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT THE BALANCE OF POWER RIGHT NOW AND HOW UNPRECEDENTED IT IS TO SEE A U.S.

PRESIDENT SO PUBLICLY REALLY DIRECT THE DIRECTION OF A WAR IN ISRAEL?

>> YES.

BIANNA, IT'S QUITE UNPRECEDENTED, NOT IN THE FACT THAT AMERICAN PRESIDENTS ARE INVOLVED IN ISRAELI DECISION MAKING PROCESS.

WE HAD IN THE PAST AND IN MANY WAYS, BUT NOW YOU HAVE AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT WHO IS PROBABLY MORE POPULAR IN ISRAEL THAN THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL AND HE DOESN'T PURSUE THE POLITICS.

HE DICTATES HIS PLAN, HIS VISION, AND THEN NETANYAHU HAS NO ALTERNATIVE BUT TO ACCEPT IT.

SO IT'S QUITE A UNIQUE, QUITE RARE IN OUR HISTORY.

>> PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS NO POLITICAL NOVICE EITHER.

HE'S NOW PRESENTING HIS PLAN AT HOME AS PART OF HIS OWN DIPLOMATIC ACHIEVEMENT.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS HE GENUINELY CONVINCED OF THAT NARRATIVE OR IS HE NOW ALREADY THINKING ABOUT THE DAY AFTER AND POTENTIALLY EVEN ELECTIONS IN THE COMING MONTHS AHEAD?

>> ELECTIONS SHOULD TAKE PLACE NEXT YEAR.

USUALLY IN ISRAEL THE PARTIES DON'T WAIT FOR THE FIXED DATE FOR ELECTIONS.

IT'S NOT LIKE THE UNITED STATES AND PROBABLY MARCH OR APRIL WE'LL HAVE ELECTIONS IN ISRAEL.

SO WE ARE QUITE CLOSE TO THIS DATE, BUT IT'S NOT ONLY THE POLITICAL ASPECT OF IT.

FOR TWO YEARS THE WAR WAS -- STILL IS -- THE CENTER OF THE ISRAELI AGENDA.

IT'S THE LONGEST WAR WE EVER HAD AND BELIEVE ME, WE HAD MANY WARS AND IT'S AGAINST OUR SMALLEST RIVAL, OUR SMALLEST ENEMY.

SO A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE MARCHING IN THE STREETS AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SUPPORT THE GOVERNMENT.

THE COUNTRY IS TORN, IS DIVIDED, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THE ARMY, THE MILITARY WHICH CONDUCTS THE WAR IS NOT DIVIDED AND THERE IS ANOTHER VERY IMPORTANT THING.

THE ISRAELIS ARE NOT DIVIDED ABOUT TRUMP BECAUSE THEY SEE THAT HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SOMEHOW GET US OUT OF THIS PROBLEM.

THE CENTER LEFT IN ISRAEL BELIEVES THAT HE WILL BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES AND END THE WAR AND THE RIGHT IN ISRAEL BELIEVES THAT HE IS THE GREAT SAVIOR OF ISRAEL AND THE FIRST PRESIDENT WHO ACTIVELY ORDERED AMERICAN PLANES TO BOMB IRAN WHEN WE HAD A VERY SHORT 12 DAYS OPERATION AGAINST IRAN.

>> YEAH.

HE WAS ALSO THE SAME PRESIDENT TO SAY ON LIVE TELEVISION TO PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WHEN HE THOUGHT THAT THE WAR IN IRAN HAD GONE FAR ENOUGH TO TURN THE F-ING -- AND YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN -- PLANES BACK AROUND AND HE DID.

SO WHEN IT COMES TO PLACATING THE FAR RIGHT, NOT ONLY IN ISRAEL, BUT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS UP AGAINST THEIR OPPOSITION AND PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I IMAGINE HE'S NOT GOING TO SAY NO TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

SO WHAT IS GOING TO BE DONE ABOUT SOME OF THOSE IN HIS OWN COALITION WHO ARE AGAINST CERTAIN ELEMENTS OF THIS PLAN?

>> LOOK, RIGHT NOW NETANYAHU HAS NO OPTION, HAS NO OPENING TO CONFRONT PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIS RELATIONS WITH JOE BIDEN AND HIS RELATIONS WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE CANNOT OPPOSE ANY IDEA THAT TRUMP BELIEVED SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED.

WITH THE RADICAL MINISTERS IN HIS GOVERNMENT, HE CAN MANEUVER.

HE CAN MANEUVER BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LOT TO GAIN BY STAYING IN THE GOVERNMENT AND ALSO HE HAS AUTOMATIC SUPPORT FROM THE OPPOSITION IF HE FOLLOWS TRUMP'S PLAN.

SO FOR HIM HIS POLITICAL PROBLEMS ARE MINOR IN COMPARISON WITH HIS RELATIONS WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> RIGHT.

AND IF HE DOES SEEK ELECTIONS ONCE AGAIN LET'S SAY, AS YOU NOTED, SOMETIME IN THE SPRING OF '26, HE WILL STILL HAVE PRESIDENT TRUMP HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND HE WILL STILL DESPERATELY NEED HIS SUPPORT IN THOSE ELECTIONS, BUT LOOKING OVER THE -- >> YOU'RE RIGHT.

>> LOOKING OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT FEW DAYS AS THESE FRAGILE NEGOTIATIONS GET UNDERWAY, I'M CURIOUS IF YOU CAN GIVE US A SENSE OF HOW ISRAELIS ARE FEELING ABOUT THIS.

I MEAN I KNOW HOW HOSTAGE FAMILIES ARE FEELING ABOUT THIS.

I'VE GROWN QUITE CLOSE WITH SEVERAL OF THEM OVER THESE LAST TWO YEARS.

IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE IT'S BEEN TWO YEARS TO THE DAY TOMORROW AND I WAS TEXTING WITH ONE OF THEM AND ASKED ABOUT HOW THEY ARE FEELING AND HOLDING UP AND THEY SAID THIS TIME IT LOOKS LIKE IT WILL HAPPEN.

IS THAT THE FEELING YOU'RE GETTING FROM ISRAELIS THERE RIGHT NOW?

WE'VE COME CLOSE BEFORE.

IS THIS REALLY IT IN THEIR VIEW?

>> IT'S A MIXTURE OF JOY, HOPE, AND FRUSTRATION AND AGONY.

I TELL YOU WHY.

ISRAEL IS A SMALL COUNTRY AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE HOSTAGES' FAMILIES, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ISRAELIS, MAYBE MORE, HAVE SOME KIND OF RELATION WITH THE HOSTAGES THERE BECAUSE IT'S FAMILY.

IT'S PEOPLE WHO WERE FRIENDS IN THE MILITARY SERVICE OR BECAUSE THEY WERE EXPOSED TO THE BEAUTIFUL, THE GREAT RELATIVES OF THESE HOSTAGES WHO APPEARED DAILY ON ISRAELI TELEVISION DURING THESE TWO YEARS.

SO THE FEELING IS UNIVERSAL.

I BELIEVE, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A BIG DEMONSTRATION IN TEL AVIV ON SATURDAY NIGHT.

IT WAS MASSIVE.

PEOPLE CAME AND PEOPLE COME AND THEY DON'T KNOW SHOULD THEY CELEBRATE THE NEW EVENT OR SHOULD THEY FEAR WHAT WILL BE THE CONSEQUENCES?

SO THEY DEMONSTRATE AND I BELIEVE THAT HERE IT GOES BEYOND INTERNAL ISRAELI DEBATE OVER THE WAR AND OVER OTHER ISSUES.

PEOPLE WANT THESE HOSTAGES BACK, NOT ONLY HOPEFULLY THE 20 WHO ARE ALIVE, BUT ALSO THE PEOPLE WHO PERISHED, WHO DIED, MURDERED, BECAUSE THE FAMILIES WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO HAVE A CLOSURE.

>> YEAH.

I'VE BEEN AT HOSTAGE SQUARE THERE THE NUMEROUS TIMES I VISITED ISRAEL AND IT IS REMARKABLE TO SEE THE TURNOUT, THE DEFIANCE, THE EMOTION, THE ANGER, THE LOVE, ALL OF THE EMOTIONS REALLY JUST ENCOMPASSED THERE AMONGST THOSE THAT COME OUT ALMOST EVERY SINGLE WEEK.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT WAS NOTABLE WAS THIS TIME THIS WEEKEND PRESIDENT TRUMP POSTED ONE OF THOSE PHOTOS OF THOSE THOUSANDS THAT CAME OUT TO HOSTAGE SQUARE ON HIS OWN TRUTH SOCIAL PLATFORM AS WELL.

SO HE HAS BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS IN PARTICULAR.

AGAIN, NOTHING HAS BEEN FINALIZED YET AND WE KNOW THAT THESE TALKS IN EGYPT, THEY HINGE ON DETAILS AND THESE ARE VERY THORNY DETAILS, WITHDRAWAL LINES, PRISONER LISTS, EVEN SECURITY -- >> YEAH.

SORRY.

WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS THAT TRUMP IS NOT INTERESTED IN DETAILS.

THIS IS THE TRANSFER FROM A GREAT VISION, 20-POINT PLAN, TO A NEGOTIATIONS ABOUT MIDDLE EASTERN NEGOTIATIONS, ABOUT DETAILS IS A VERY DRAMATIC TRANSFER.

SO WE LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS NOW IN EGYPT IN NEGOTIATIONS IN A KIND OF WORRY BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW HOW HAMAS AND EVEN HOW THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WILL PLAY THIS GAME BECAUSE THE GAME OF DETAILS CAN BE A KIND OF INVITATION TO A CRISIS.

>> RIGHT.

AND AS WE KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP OUT OF THESE 20 POINTS IS PROBABLY MOST INTERESTED IN NUMBERS 1, 2, OR 3 MAX AND THEN LOSES INTEREST QUICKLY AS THAT LIST GOES ON.

>> YEAH.

>> QUICKLY, IN THE FINAL SECONDS WITH YOU, WHAT ARE YOU MOST CONCERNED ABOUT THAT COULD POSSIBLY DERAIL THESE TALKS OVER THE NEXT 48 HOURS OR SO?

>> LOOK, THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL HAS DEMANDS WHICH ARE PARTIALLY MENTIONED IN THE 20 POINTS.

HAMAS ARE AGAINST SOME OF THEM VERY, VERY -- IN A VERY, VERY BLUNT WAY.

I'M TALKING ABOUT THE DEMAND OF HAMAS THAT ISRAEL WILL WITHDRAW FROM ALL OF THE GAZA STRIP RIGHT NOW PARALLEL TO THEIR RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES AND ALSO THE QUESTION OF THE STATUS OF HAMAS AFTERWARDS.

SHOULD THEY GIVE AWAY THEIR GUNS AND THEIR MILITARY POSITION OR NOT?

ALL THESE QUESTIONS ARE NOT RESOLVED YET, BUT WHAT WE SEE IS A MOVEMENT, A LOT OF THE REASON IS HAMAS IS NOW VERY WEAK MILITARILY.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT WE SEE A MOVEMENT TOWARD A MUCH MORE WILLING OF HAMAS TO COMPROMISE.

I HOPE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WILL SHOW THE SAME WILLING AND WILL FINALLY HAVE A WAY TO END THIS WAR AND FIRST AND FOREMOST, TO SEE OUR HOSTAGES BACK AT HOME.

>> GOD WILLING ALL OF THAT DOES HAPPEN FINALLY AFTER TWO YEARS OF JUST HEARTBREAK AND DEVASTATION.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, REALLY GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> TURNING NOW TO MOROCCO WHERE PROTESTS ARE SWEEPING THE COUNTRY AFTER THE DEATHS OF MULTIPLE WOMEN AT A MATERNITY WARD LAST MONTH.

PEOPLE ARE TAKING TO THE STREETS IN ANGER, NOT JUST ABOUT THE STATE OF PUBLIC HEALTHCARE, BUT ALSO EDUCATION, HOUSING, AND UNEMPLOYMENT.

LED BY A GROUP CALLED GEN Z 212 IT'S PART OF A WIDER TREND OF GEN Z PROTESTS WHICH BEGAN IN NEPAL AND ARE SPREADING AROUND THE WORLD AND IT COMES AS MOROCCO MAKES PREPARATION TO CO- HOST THE 2030 FOOTBALL WORLD CUP WITH YOUNG DEMONSTRATORS CHANTING, "WE WANT HOSPITALS, NOT FOOTBALL STADIUMS."

AND THINGS HAVE TURNED VIOLENT WITH THREE PEOPLE KILLED AND HUNDREDS INJURED ACCORDING TO AUTHORITIES.

AMNESTY INTERNATIONALS SECURITY FORCES ARE USING EXCESSIVE FORCE, REPORTEDLY DRIVING VEHICLES INTO PROTESTERS AND VIOLENTLY ARRESTING OTHERS.

TO ANSWER HOW THE GOVERNMENT IS RESPONDING TO ALL THIS, I SPOKE TO THE SPOKESPERSON FOR MOROCCO'S MINISTRY OF INTERIOR, RASHEED AL KALFI AND HIS AND THE GOVERNMENT'S FIRST INTERVIEW TO THE NATIONAL INTERVIEW SINCE THE PROTESTS BEGAN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

THESE PROTESTS THAT WE'RE SEEING ON THE STREETS OF MOROCCO ARE LARGELY LED BY GEN Z PROTESTERS AND WE KNOW THAT MORE THAN HALF OF MOROCCO'S POPULATION IS UNDER 35 YEARS OF AGE.

YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT IS AROUND 36%.

ARE THESE PROTESTS A SIGN THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT, WHICH WE SHOULD NOTE IS LED BY A BILLIONAIRE PRIME MINISTER HAS FAILED YOUNG MOROCCANS?

>> IN THE BEGINNING I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOUR RESPECTABLE CHANNEL FOR SPECIFYING THIS SPACE FOR THE INTERIOR MINISTRY SO THAT THERE WILL BE COMMUNICATION WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

WITH REGARDS TO THE PROTESTS IN THE KINGDOM, IT HAS MOVED LONG STEPS TO EXPRESS THEIR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, INCLUDING THE PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION.

THE NUMBERS THAT ARE AVAILABLE, IT WITNESSES THAT THERE ARE 600 DEMONSTRATIONS PER MONTH.

THIS MEANS THAT THE CULTURE OF PROTESTING WHICH CAN BE CONSIDERED, IT IS ACCEPTABLE BY THE GENERAL AUTHORITY.

IT HAS NO PROBLEM AT ALL.

YOUTHS TAKING TO THE STREETS, WE CONSIDER TO BE VERY HEALTHY, SHOWS THAT THERE IS SOME DYNAMISM OF SOCIETY AND, OF COURSE, THE RULE OF THE STATE IS TO LISTEN AND CORRECT, REMOVE ANY MISUNDERSTANDING WITH REGARDS TO THE LEGAL DEMANDS.

THE PROTESTS OF THESE YOUTHS HAS NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL CONTEXT.

ON THE CONTRARY, IT OPENS A WINDOW TO THAT STATE WOULD RESPOND TO AND THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE RESPONDING TO.

>> BUT THEY AREN'T PROTESTING FROM A HAPPY OR SATISFIED CURRENT STATUS.

THEY ARE PROTESTING WHAT THEY DEEM TO BE A VERY UNHEALTHY ECONOMIC SITUATION AND PICTURE FOR THEM.

IN PARTICULAR, THEY HAVE BEEN CHANTING -- I'LL QUOTE FROM THEM -- "STADIUMS ARE HERE, BUT WHERE ARE THE HOSPITALS?"

AND THIS IS COMING AS MOROCCO SAYS IT WILL BE SPENDING MORE THAN $5 BILLION ON WORLD CUP 2030 PROJECTS AND STADIUMS.

WE SHOULD NOTE THE MONTHLY MINIMUM WAGE IS ABOUT $300.

WILL ANY OF THAT MONEY NOW BE REDIRECTED TO HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION AND TRYING TO PROVIDE JOBS FOR THESE PROTESTERS?

>> LET ME TELL YOU THAT THE NATURE OF THE QUESTION IS NOT PUT WITHIN THE INTEREST OR THE AUTHORITY OF THE INTERIOR MINISTRY.

I'M TALKING ABOUT THE SECURITY FORCES AND HOW IT'S DEALING WITH THESE PROTESTS.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW THESE PROTESTS HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH.

AT LEAST THREE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED.

MORE THAN 400 ARRESTED.

CAN YOU UPDATE US ON THE LATEST NUMBERS RIGHT NOW AND IS AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION GOING TO BEGIN IN DETERMINING WHY THESE THREE MOROCCANS WERE KILLED?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT IS THE SHOOTING WHICH HAS KILLED THREE PEOPLE.

IT WAS WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF SELF-DEFENSE OF THE POLICE WHICH HAS BEEN EXPOSED TO DANGERS AND YOU HAVE NOTICED AND WE ALL HAVE NOTICED THAT THE VIDEO CLIPS THAT ACTUALLY DOCUMENT SOME OF THE INSTIGATORS TO BURN THE HEADQUARTERS WHERE THE POLICE HAVE BEEN.

SO WE CONSIDER THIS MATTER GOES UNDER THE SELF-DEFENSE AND I WOULD LIKE TO TELL YOU THAT THE PUBLIC PERSECUTION HAS STARTED AN INVESTIGATION THROUGH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THROUGH AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THIS EVENT HAS BEEN RECORDED AND THERE ARE SOME INVESTIGATIONS WHOEVER HAS BEEN INVOLVED AND IT'S TOO EARLY TO HAVE REACHED ANY CONCLUSION ON THIS MATTER.

>> HOW DO YOU RESPOND, THEN TO, ACCUSATIONS, TO ACCUSATIONS OF EXCESSIVE FORCE USED BY POLICE AND AUTHORITIES AND ALLEGATIONS OF A CAR RAMMING INTO SOME OF THESE PROTESTERS?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GIVEN THAT, IS AN INVESTIGATION GOING TO BEGIN AND IS THIS EXCESSIVE FORCE USED BY THE POLICE THERE?

>> THE SITUATION OR THE CASE THAT YOU'VE MENTIONED, THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED, WHICH WAS THE CITY, WE EMPHASIZE THE VIDEO THAT YOU TALK ABOUT WHICH HAS BEEN CUT OUT OF CONTEXT AT THE TIME AND WE DID NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE RECORDING THE VIDEO, WHETHER THERE BE ANY STONE THROWING OR HURLING.

THERE ARE NO DATA WITH REGARDS TO THAT AND THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION GOING ON, ONGOING, AND IN PARTICULAR, THAT THE STATE IS VERY KEEN TO HAVE THE PROPORTIONATE REACTION.

MAY I CLARIFY A VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE, THAT IN ALL CASES THAT HAS BEEN BROADCASTED, IT HAS BEEN DEALT WITH SERIOUSLY BY OPENING INVESTIGATIONS.

THERE IS A NECESSITY AND KEENNESS TO APPLY STRICTLY THE LAW WHOEVER HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN SUCH OF THESE ACTS WHICH ARE VIOLATING THE LAW, WHETHER IT'S FROM THE POLICE OR THE PROTESTERS.

>> WOULD STONE THROWING, THEN, CALL FOR OR ALLOW OR JUSTIFY IN YOUR VIEW THE RAMMING OF A POLICE VEHICLE INTO PROTESTERS?

>> NO.

WE DIDN'T SAY THAT, MADAM.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION AS WE STILL HAVE MORE DATA TO GET AND WHAT ARE THE JUSTIFICATIONS OR THE MOTIVES THAT HAS HAPPENED WHICH HAS RECORDED OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, MADAM.

>> THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS THAT HE IS OPEN TO DIALOGUE AND DISCUSSION.

PROTESTERS ARE DEMANDING HIS RESIGNATION.

I GET A SENSE THAT YOU DO NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE POLITICAL UNDERTONES HERE THAT HAVE LED TO THESE PROTESTS, BUT OBVIOUSLY IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT ASPECT.

WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT PLANNING TO DO NOW IN RESPONSE TO THESE PROTESTS, WHAT I WOULD IMAGINE THEY ARE ONLY GOING TO CONTINUE TO GROW, IF THERE ISN'T A RESPONSE FROM THIS GOVERNMENT?

DOES THAT INCLUDE POTENTIALLY THE PRIME MINISTER OR SOMEONE ELSE RESIGNING?

>> I BELIEVE THAT YOUR QUESTION AS YOU HAVE CONFIRMED THAT YOU DO NOT WANT TO TALK TO THE POLITICAL CONTEXT OF THE PROTESTS AND OUR RULE IS ALSO IS TO -- WE WOULD NOT LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE POLITICAL ASPECT OF IT AND WE KEEP TO THE -- WHAT IS AT THE HEART OF OUR TASKS, WHICH IS THE SECURITY FORCES WHICH HAS RELATED TO THE PROTESTS AND NOT THE OTHER CONTEXTS THAT YOU HAVE ASKED IN YOUR QUESTION, MADAM.

>> WHY NOT?

>> I AM SPOKESMAN OF THE INTERIOR MINISTRY HERE.

IT'S BECAUSE TO EXPLAIN THE -- ALL WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH REGARDS WHAT'S HAPPENED TO CLARIFY WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE FIELD.

>> ARE YOU CONCERNED, THOUGH, BY NOT ADDRESSING -- AND LISTEN, I APPRECIATE YOU TALKING WITH US, BUT THERE HAS BEEN CRITICISM THAT YOU FACED FROM MOROCCAN JOURNALISTS ABOUT AVOIDING QUESTIONS DURING THIS CRISIS AS WELL.

AVOIDING QUESTIONS WON'T SOLVE THIS CRISIS THAT IS ONLY ESCALATING AND GROWING IN YOUR COUNTRY.

DON'T YOU THINK THAT THE PEOPLE OF MOROCCO FIRST AND FOREMOST DESERVE SOME ANSWERS?

>> I WOULD CLARIFY.

IT'S LIKELY THAT FROM THE BEGINNING OF MY QUESTION, THERE IS NO ESCALATION OF VIOLENCE.

WE HAVE TO REGISTER THIS POINT AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT VIOLENCE AT THE TIME, A SPECIFIC MOMENT, AND IT'S DONE, FINISHED.

WE ARE IN FRONT OF PEACEFUL PROTESTS AND IT'S BEEN DEALT WITH LOGISTICALLY AND REASONABLY.

SO I CLARIFY THIS, THE NOTE, THAT'S THE GENERAL AUTHORITY HAS DEALT WITH IT.

IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS A PREVENTION OF THESE PROTESTS OR DEMONSTRATIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE UNKNOWN.

THEY DON'T KNOW WHO IS RECORDING FOR THESE KIND OF DEMONSTRATIONS AND SOME PEOPLE WENT TO THE STREET.

WE MOVED TO THE SCENE AND SOME OF THE YOUTHS COMING TO THE SCENE OR TO THE STREETS, THE GENERAL AUTHORITY HAS CHANGED.

IT'S A WAY WITH SOME FLEXIBILITY WITH THESE PROTESTS SO LONG AS THERE ARE SOME YOUTHS WHO ARE PUTTING THEM WITHIN THE FRAME AND THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE ABOUT ORGANIZING IT.

>> SO LET THEY FINALLY ASK YOU HOW CAN YOU BE SO CONFIDENT THAT THESE PROTESTS ARE CONTAINED BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN SIMILAR MOVEMENTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES RANGING FROM KNEE MALL NEPAL TO MADAGASCAR WHERE GEN Z PROTESTERS HAVE ACTUALLY TOPPLED THEIR GOVERNMENT?

>> MAY I, MADAM, I WOULD LIKE TO CONFIRM THAT THE NATIONAL MOROCCAN CONTEXT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHERS AND HERE WE ARE NOT MOVING FROM VACUUM.

THE MOROCCAN GOVERNMENT, THERE ARE BIG PROJECTS OR PROGRAMS.

THERE ARE SOME LACK IN SOME CASES, BUT WE WERE STARTING FROM THE -- WHAT'S BEEN ACHIEVED.

WE HAVE GOOD OUTCOMES THAT ARE RESPECTABLE AND WE ARE REALLY CLEAR WITH OURSELVES.

WE ARE AWARE THERE ARE SOME SHORTAGES AND THERE ARE SOME PITFALLS HERE IN SOME PLACES AND SOME FIELDS AND IT'S WELL KNOWN AND IT'S NOT THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO BE COVERING THESE AND WE CAN PROVIDE WHAT WE CAN SO THAT WE CAN GUARANTEE THE DIGNITY OF HUMAN DIGNITY AND THE JUSTICE OF THE CITIZENS IN MOROCCO IN GENERAL.

>> UNDERSTOOD.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THIS SPACE, MEDIA SPACE, FOR ME AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO THE U.S.

WHERE THE GOVERNMENT IS STILL SHUT DOWN.

THE STANDOFF BETWEEN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS DRAGGING ON FOR NEARLY A WEEK WITH THE WHITE HOUSE THREATENING MASS LAYOFFS OF FEDERAL EMPLOYEES.

MEANWHILE ILLINOIS AND CHICAGO ARE BOTH SUING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OVER DEPLOYMENT OF THE NATIONAL GUARD AND A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS BLOCKED DONALD TRUMP FROM SENDING TROOPS TO OREGON TWICE IN TWO DAYS.

SO AS THE STALEMATE IN WASHINGTON CONTINUES, LET'S BRING IN SUSAN GLASSER, STAFF WRITER AT THE NEW YORKER, TO DISCUSS WHAT'S AT STAKE.

SUSAN, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

LET'S START WITH THE NEWS LATE LAST NIGHT WHERE JUDGE KAREN EMERGUT TEMPORARY BLOCKED SENDING NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS TO OREGON CALLING THE ADMINISTRATION'S ACTIONS AN ATTEMPT TO "CIRCUMVENT" AN EARLIER ORDER.

YOU'VE CHRONICLED TRUMP'S BOUNDARY PUSHING FOR LACK OF A BETTER PHRASE FOR YEARS NOW.

IS THIS MORE OF THE SAME OR DOES THIS FEEL A LITTLE DIFFERENT FOR YOU?

>> WE'RE IN A VERY ESCALATORY PERIOD RIGHT NOW, BIANNA, AND I THINK THAT THE JUDGE, BY THE WAY, A TRUMP-APPOINTED JUDGE WHOM HE IS NOW DISAVOWING, BUT THE JUDGE, A CONSERVATIVE BY ANY STANDARDS, A MEMBER OF KEN STARR'S LEGAL TEAM THAT WENT AFTER BILL CLINTON TWO DECADES AGO, MORE THAN TWO DECADES AGO, SHE HAS OPENLY RAISED THE SPECTER OF MARTIAL LAW AS A GOAL IN EFFECT OF WHAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO IN PORTLAND, OREGON.

SHE'S ALSO POINTED OUT THAT THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE EVEN THE INVENTED PRETEXT BEARS NO RESEMBLANCE TO THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER, THE FACTS ON THE GROUND.

THIS IS A PEACEFUL MOMENT IN AMERICA THAT DONALD TRUMP IS MISCONSTRUING AS SOME SORT OF HELLSCAPE OF INTERNAL WAR AND CONFLICT AS IF HE WANTS TO ALMOST CREATE A SELF-FULFILLING PROPHESY AND I'VE BEEN STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT MULTIPLE FEDERAL JUDGES HAVE PUSHED BACK AGAINST THIS, NOT ONLY IN OREGON, BUT ELSEWHERE AROUND THE COUNTRY.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE WAITING FOR IS THE SUPREME COURT OR, FRANKLY, ANY INSTITUTION IN OUR SOCIETY TO BE ABLE TO DEFINITIVELY CLOSE OFF THIS AVENUE FOR DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE IN THE MEANTIME HE'S NOW PROMOTING THIS AS ALMOST A NEW MODEL FOR THE UNITED STATES, THAT HE SHOULD TAKE AMERICA'S MILITARY TROOPS AND TURN THEM AGAINST AMERICA'S OWN CITIZENS.

>> WELL, HE'S DEPICTING CITIES LIKE CHICAGO WHICH WE SHOULD NOTE HAVE HAD A HISTORY OF CRIME, VIOLENT CRIME.

THOSE STATISTICS SHOW THAT VIOLENT CRIME IN GENERAL IN THE UNITED STATES OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS HAS GONE DOWN.

NONETHELESS, PERCEPTION IS REALLY KEY HERE AND THAT IS SOMETHING PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PICKED UP ON AND HE DEPICTS MANY OF THESE LARGE CITIES, MOST OF THEM DEMOCRAT-RUN, AS WAR ZONES AND I'D LIKE TO PLAY A HIGHLY EDUCATED VIDEO FROM KRISTI NOEM BASICALLY SUGGESTING CHICAGO WITH ACCEPT THESE TYPES OF MOVES.

OKAY.

SO LET'S COUNTER THAT WITH HOW GOVERNOR PRITZKER IS RESPONDING TO THESE ACTIONS.

>> THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE MAKING IT A WAR ZONE.

THEY NEED TO GET OUT OF CHICAGO IF THEY'RE NOT GOING TO FOCUS ON THE WORST OF THE WORST, WHICH IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID THEY WERE GOING TO DO.

THEY NEED TO GET THE HECK OUT.

>> WHO HAS THE STRONGER NARRATIVE HERE IN YOUR VIEW AT THIS POINT, SUSAN?

>> IT'S NOT ABOUT NARRATIVES HONESTLY.

I THINK THAT'S A LOT OF THE CRISIS IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

>> YEAH.

>> IT'S NOT ABOUT NARRATIVES.

THERE IS NO WAR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TODAY, OKAY?

LET'S BE CLEAR ON THAT, FIRST OF ALL.

SECOND OF ALL, WE HAVE CIVILIAN POLICE FORCES IN THIS COUNTRY.

TO THE EXTENT YOU BELIEVE THERE'S AN ENORMOUS CRIME PROBLEM IN AMERICA'S CITIES, IF YOU LOOK PER CAPITA, BY THE WAY, SOME OF THE BIGGEST CRIME RIDDEN PARTS OF AMERICA ARE RED SOUTHERN STATES THAT SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP, BUT PUT THAT ASIDE.

WE DON'T HAVE A U.S.

MILITARY TO FIGHT CRIME IN THIS COUNTRY.

THE U.S.

MILITARY, AS YOU KNOW, IS MEANT TO SECURE THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES.

CRIME FIGHTING IS NOT IN ITS WRIT AND EVEN IF THERE WERE ANY TRUTH TO DONALD TRUMP'S NARRATIVE, THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS.

I JUST THINK THAT'S A LOT OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU HAVE POLITICIANS LIKE TRUMP AND DEMOCRATS AS WELL CONSTANTLY NOW ONLY PLAYING TO THEIR OWN SUPPORTERS, THEIR OWN PREEXISTING POLITICAL SUPPORTERS, AND IT'S ALL ABOUT A NARRATIVE RATHER THAN THE IDEA.

IT'S LIKE WE'VE GIVEN UP ON THE IDEA OF UNDERLYING FACTS.

I THINK THAT'S WHERE SOME OF THESE FEDERAL JUDGES HAVE COME IN AND SAID HEY, WAIT A MINUTE.

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT ON TEAM BLUE OR TEAM RED.

I'M A NONPARTISAN JUDGE, IN FACT, APPOINTED BY DONALD TRUMP AND I'M TELLING YOU THIS IS A FALSE PRETEXT AND IT'S NOT TRUE.

>> RIGHT.

FACTS MATTER AND THE LAW MATTERS IS WHAT THESE JUDGES ARE SAYING, BUT ESSENTIALLY YOU'VE GOT PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO IS NATIONAL GUARD SHOPPING AT THIS POINT.

REPORTS ARE THAT HE'S TRYING TO GET TEXAS NOW TO DEPLOY NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS OUT OF STATE.

THIS JUDGE, AS WE NOTED, IS NOT A LIBERAL JUDGE AND IT SAYS HOW FAR WE'VE GONE IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE WE CONTINUE TO HAVE TO DESCRIBE JUDGES BY WHO APPOINTED THEM.

THAT WASN'T ALWAYS THE NORM.

NONETHELESS SHE WAS APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP.

DOES THAT SUGGEST TO YOU THAT THE INSTITUTIONAL GUARDRAILS ARE STILL HOLDING OR IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS HERE IS WHAT THE SUPREME COURT ULTIMATELY DECIDES AND THEY HAVE YET TO WEIGH IN ON THIS?

>> YEAH.

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT UP.

I THINK WE'RE TALKING ON A DAY THAT IS THE OPENING OF THIS NEW SUPREME COURT TERM THAT REALLY IN MANY WAYS IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT SUPREME COURT TERMS, I BELIEVE, IN OUR ADULT LIFETIME AND THIS IS THE MOMENT WHEN THE SORT OF LATER, LATER, LATER STRATEGY OF THE FIRST YEAR SO FAR OF TRUMP'S RETURN TO OFFICE IS GOING TO COME DUE FOR THE SUPREME COURT AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE SOME NOT JUST KIND OF TEMPORARY RULINGS, BUT RULINGS ON THE UNDERLYING CONSTITUTIONALITY OF SOME OF DONALD TRUMP'S MOST CONTROVERSIAL MOVES.

THAT INCLUDES IMPOSING "RETALIATORY" TARIFFS ON MANY OF OUR BIGGEST TRADING PARTNERS.

IT MIGHT INCLUDE HIM UNILATERALLY DECIDING TO GET RID OF THE CONSTITUTION'S BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP GUARANTEE, SOME OF THESE ISSUES RELATED TO THE NATIONAL GUARD AND THE MILITARIZATION, SORRY, THE UTILIZATION OF AMERICA'S MILITARY INSIDE THE COUNTRY THAT THEY COULD ALSO END UP IN THE SUPREME COURT INSIDE THIS TERM.

I THINK IT'S REALLY AN INCOMPLETE RIGHT NOW, BIANNA.

WE DON'T KNOW THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE SUPREME COURT WILL ULTIMATELY ENABLE DONALD TRUMP'S EXECUTIVE POWER GRABS, WHICH IS BROADLY SPEAKING, WHAT UNITES MANY OF THESE VERY DISPARATE ACTIONS, BUT SO FAR THE 6-3 MAJORITY ON THE COURT HAS GIVEN AN EXTREME AMOUNT OF LEEWAY TO DONALD TRUMP.

>> WE ARE ON DAY SIX OF A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN WITH NO DEAL IN SIGHT RIGHT NOW.

CBS POLLING SHOWS AMERICANS BLAMING BOTH SIDES ESSENTIALLY, THE PRESIDENT AS WELL, BUT THEY SEE DEMOCRATS AS WEAK, REPUBLICANS AS EXTREME.

HOW DOES TRUMP'S PUSH TO DEPLOY TROOPS INTO MAJOR U.S.

CITIES RATHER THAN JUST TACKLE AND FOCUS ON THIS GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN ISSUE, HOW IS THIS FACTORING INTO YOUR PERCEPTION OF HIS ULTIMATE GOAL HERE?

I MEAN DON'T FORGET, WE'VE ALREADY MISSED A JOBS REPORT ON FRIDAY WITH THIS GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN AS WELL.

>> YES.

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT UP.

JUST TO UNDERSCORE YOUR POINT, THERE'S A REAL WORLD HERE, RIGHT?

AND IT SEEMS THAT TRUMP AND REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS AS WELL ARE MUCH MORE FOCUSED ON THE NARRATIVE AGAIN AND THE BLAME GAME IN THE CASE OF THE SHUTDOWN THAN THEY ARE ON ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING TO RESOLVE IT.

THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, REPUBLICAN MIKE JOHNSON, ACTUALLY ISN'T EVEN CONVENING HOUSE REPUBLICANS THIS WEEK, WHICH IS A PRETTY REMARKABLE SIGN THAT THEY AREN'T VIEWING THIS AS A CRISIS.

AT LEAST IN THE PAST WHEN WE HAD THESE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWNS, THEY'RE A MANIFESTATION OF OUR GRIDLOCK OF A COUNTRY THAT WE CAN'T EVEN FUND OUR GOVERNMENT.

RIGHT NOW THEY'RE NOT EVEN HAVING TALKS IN ORDER TO RESOLVE IT AND I THINK TO ME THAT SUGGESTS THE LEVEL OF DYSFUNCTION HAS JUST REACHED A WHOLE NEW -- I'M GOING TO SAY LOW RATHER THAN HIGH IN THIS CASE.

>> AND A COMPLETE DISSERVICE, ONCE AGAIN, TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

SUSAN GLASSER, THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS, TOO BAD WE CAN'T END ON A MORE OPTIMISTIC NOTE, BUT THIS IS THE WORLD WE LIVE IN RIGHT NOW AND OUR REALITY, APPRECIATE YOU BREAKING IT DOWN FOR US.

>>> UP NEXT, $24.5 MILLION, THE SETTLEMENT YOUTUBE AGREED TO PAY TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, JUST ONE IN A LONG LINE OF LAWSUITS FILED AGAINST U.S.

COMPANIES.

WHILE THE AGREEMENT MARKS AN END TO THIS CASE, THE ATLANTIC'S ADAM SEWARD ASKS WHAT THE TRUE COST MIGHT BE FOR DEMOCRACY AS HE EXPLAINS TO MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR RECENT PIECE IN THE ATLANTIC TITLED "LOWER THAN COWARDS," WHICH SAYS A LOT, DOESN'T SAY IT ALL," LOWER THAN COWARDS" AND IT DESCRIBES WHAT YOU CONSIDER THE RESPONSE OF AMERICAN ELITES TO WHAT YOU CALL TRUMP'S AUTHORITARIAN BULLYING.

YOU ARE ARGUING IN THIS PIECE THAT PRIVATE COMPANIES AND OTHER ELITES, UNLIKE THE MILITARY, DO HAVE THE FREEDOM TO RESIST, YET MANY HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO.

YOU WRITE, "CASCADING ACTS OF COWARDICE FROM THE PEOPLE BEST POSITIONED TO RESIST TRUMP'S AUTHORITARIAN POWER GRABS HAVE MADE TRUMP SEEM EXPONENTIALLY MORE POWERFUL THAN HE ACTUALLY IS."

CAN YOU JUST UNPACK THAT A LITTLE BIT?

GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK COULD RESIST HIS BULLYING BUT DON'T.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE LARGE PRIVATE CORPORATIONS THAT HAVE HUGE BUDGETS AND A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE AND THAT INCLUDES MEDIA COMPANIES, UNIVERSITIES LIKE HARVARD -- SOME OF THEM ARE ACTUALLY FIGHTING BACK -- BUT PROMINENT UNIVERSITIES COULD SAY NO.

RIGHT NOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO COERCE THESE UNIVERSITIES INTO TEACHING ONLY REGIME-APPROVED CURRICULUM AND THE ISSUE IS THAT WHEN PEOPLE -- WHEN SO MANY PEOPLE FOLD AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT A LOT OF THESE INSTITUTIONS ARE OPTIMIZED FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO COMPROMISE.

THEY'RE OPTIMIZED FOR, YOU KNOW, A CIVIL SOCIETY IN WHICH THERE IS NOT AN AUTHORITARIAN LEADER WHO IS TRYING TO BULLY PEOPLE INTO SUBMISSION AND SO THEY'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, QUALITIES THAT LED THEM TO THAT POSITION ARE NOT THE KIND OF QUALITIES YOU WOULD WANT IN A LEADER IN TERMS OF BEING BRAVE ENOUGH TO STAND UP TO A BULLY.

>> CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

EXPLAIN THAT, LIKE THE LAW FIRMS, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO HAVE PAID -- >> WELL, RIGHT.

WE HAVE THESE LAW FIRMS THAT HAVE MADE AGREEMENTS WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO, IF ANYONE IS EQUIPPED TO, YOU KNOW, FIGHT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO A STANDSTILL, IT'S PROMINENT LAW FIRMS AND YET SO MANY HAVE AGREED TO WHAT IS, FRANKLY, UNCONSTITUTIONAL AGREEMENTS DEFINING WHAT KIND OF CASES THEY CAN TAKE, OBLIGATING THEM TO HELP THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN SOME OF ITS LEGAL GOALS.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO COULD HAVE FOUGHT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND DID NOT AND THE REPUTATIONS HAVE SUFFERED AS A RESULT.

IN SOME CASES THEY'VE LOST CLIENTS BECAUSE IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR AN ATTORNEY, IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR ZEALOUS REPRESENTATION, YOU REALLY DON'T WANT TO HIRE AN ATTORNEY THAT HAS DUAL LOYALTIES IN TERMS OF THEIR INTERESTS IN APPEASING THE GOVERNMENT.

IT REALLY UNDERMINES THE LEGAL SYSTEM TREMENDOUSLY AND THAT'S PRECISELY WHY IT'S SO SHOCKING THAT SO MANY OF THEM HAVE CAPITULATED.

>> BUT WHY DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE?

>> I THINK IN SOME CASES, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE LEADERSHIP THAT ARE USED TO TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET ALONG RATHER THAN VERSED TO CONFLICT AND I THINK IN SOME PLACES THEY ACTUALLY AGREE WITH THE ADMINISTRATION AND THEY ARE HAPPY TO BE LOOKING LIKE THEY ARE FORCED TO DO THINGS THAT THEY OTHERWISE WOULD WANT TO DO BUT THAT MIGHT INCUR A BACKLASH IF THEY LOOKED LIKE THEY WANTED TO DO IT INSTEAD OF THEY WERE BEING FORCED TO DO IT.

>> LIKE THE TECH COMPANIES, FOR EXAMPLE?

THE TECH COMPANIES ARE AN EXAMPLE, NO MORE CONTENT MODERATION, YOU KNOW, UNFETTERED FREE SPEECH, AS IT WERE, THINGS OF THAT SORT?

>> YEAH.

I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR BY UNFETTERED FREE SPEECH, THEY MEAN PRIVILEGING CONSERVATIVE SPEECH.

WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT UNFETTERED FREE SPEECH, THEY DON'T REALLY MEAN THAT.

THEY HAVE INTERNALIZED THE DEFINITION OF FREE SPEECH THAT IS PROMINENT IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS FREE SPEECH IS WHEN REPUBLICANS CAN SAY WHAT THEY WANT AND WHEN EVERYONE ELSE CAN SAY WHAT THEY WANT.

BUT THE ISSUE WITH PRIVATE FIRMS IN GENERAL IS THAT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE SUBJECT TO REGULATION OR TARIFFS ON THE BASIS OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH TRUMP, THAT'S A SYSTEM WHERE CORRUPTION AND THREAT SEEKING THRIVES.

THAT'S NOT A SYSTEM WHERE YOU SUCCEED ON THE QUALITY OF YOUR PRODUCT OR YOUR SERVICE.

THAT'S A SYSTEM WHERE YOU SUCCEED ON THE BASIS OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF COMPANIES ARE ACTING IN THEIR SHORT-TERM INTEREST IN CURRYING FAVOR WITH TRUMP, BUT PROFIT SEEKING INSTITUTIONS ARE OFTEN NOT VERY GOOD AT LOOKING AT THE LONG TERM.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE A STATE- REGULATED MARKETPLACE.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE REGULATIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE SOMETIMES THAT SHORT-TERM PROFIT SEEKING CAN BE EXTREMELY DESTRUCTIVE TO THE LARGER SYSTEM.

AND IT IS EXTREMELY DESTRUCTIVE TO THE LARGER SYSTEM BECAUSE THE END PRODUCT IS A DEGRADED MARKETPLACE WHERE CORRUPTION EATS UP MOST OF THE GROWTH AND PROFIT AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL BE POORER AS A RESULT EVEN IF, YOU KNOW, A SELECT SET OF OLIGARCHS AT THE TOP OF AMERICAN SOCIETY WHO ARE ALIGNED WITH TRUMP CONTINUE TO SEE THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS GROW.

>> YOU CONTRAST -- >> AND THAT'S A CONSERVATIVE POINT, BY THE WAY.

I'M A LIBERAL.

I'M NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

I'M NOT LIKE A MARKET FUNDAMENTALIST, BUT THESE ARE THEIR INSIGHTS.

THESE ARE THE THINGS THEM USED TO BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE JETTISONED IN THE NAME OF BECOMING A FULLY AUTHORITARIAN STATE.

>> IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THE INSTITUTIONAL IMPERATIVE ONCE YOU BECOME PART OF THESE BIG INSTITUTIONS?

THE IDEA IS OH, WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO PRESERVE THE INSTITUTION EVEN IF THAT IS AVERSE TO ALL THE THINGS I'VE BEEN TAUGHT THIS INSTITUTION IS SUPPOSED TO STAND FOR?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM THAT EVERY INSTITUTION FACES IS WHEN YOUR INSTITUTIONAL SELF- INTEREST CONFLICTS WITH YOUR STATED VALUES AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE THAT MULTIPLIED, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT'S NOT JUST ONE INSTITUTION, BUT IT'S MANY, MANY, MANY, WE MULTIPLY IT 100-FOLD, YOU END UP WITH A VERY SERIOUS COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEM WHERE ALL THESE INSTITUTIONS THAT MIGHT HAVE COLLECTIVELY BEEN ABLE TO PUT UP A REALLY STRONG RESISTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION OVERREACH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS ENGAGING IN, THEY HAVE INSTEAD, YOU KNOW, PUT THEMSELVES IN A POSITION WHERE HERE GETTING PICKED OFF ONE BY ONE INSTEAD OF FIGHTING TOGETHER, AS BEN FRANKLIN FAMOUSLY PUT IT, WE MUST ALL HANG TOGETHER OR WE'LL ALL HANG SEPARATELY.

WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS THAT, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE INSTITUTIONS ARE HANGING SEPARATELY.

>> YOU CONTRAST ELITE CAPITULATION WITH THE COURAGE OF ORDINARY PEOPLE, PROTESTERS, DETAINEES, JURORS IN GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS WHO HAVE RESISTED DESPITE GREATER RISK.

>> SOMEONE LIKE JIMMY KIMMEL, JIMMY KIMMEL WAS NOT THE FIRST PERSON, NOR THE PERSON MOST HARMED BY, YOU KNOW, BY THE ADMINISTRATION'S CRACKDOWN ON FREE SPEECH.

I MEAN YOU LOOK AT ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE DETAINED BY I.C.E.

WHO WERE LOCKED UP ON THE BASIS OF THEIR PRO PALESTINIAN ADVOCACY WHO THEN CAME OUT AND SAID I STILL BELIEVE WHAT I BELIEVE REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT THE STATE COULD TAKE AWAY MY FREEDOM, YOU KNOW, MY HOME, THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> YEAH.

>> I THINK THE ISSUE IS AGAIN, IT'S SOMEWHAT RELATED TO THE ISSUE OF LEADERSHIP, WHICH IS THAT WHEN PEOPLE BECOME COMFORTABLE IN THEIR LIVES, THEY CAN SOMETIMES FORGET WHAT ACTUALLY MATTERS BEYOND COMFORT AND THAT'S RELATED TO A SIMILAR POINT THAT I WAS MAKING IN THE PIECE ITSELF, WHICH IS THAT COWARDICE IS AN UNDERSTANDABLE REACTION TO REAL DANGER, BUT THIS IS SOMETHING WORSE THAN COWARDICE, AN AVERSION TO ANY KIND OF CONFRONTATION IN DEFENSE OF THE VALUES THAT YOU CLAIM TO HOLD.

AND THAT, YOU KNOW, TRUMP'S REAL TRIUMPH WAS UNDERSTANDING THAT SO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE CLAIM TO HAVE VALUES THAT THEY DID NOT ACTUALLY HAVE AND WOULD ABANDON THOSE VALUES UNDER ANY KIND OF SUSTAINED PRESSURE.

AND IT SAYS SOMETHING I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT SAYS SOMETHING BAD ABOUT ELITES, BUT IT DOES SAY SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THAT SO MANY AMERICAN PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, ARE NOT -- THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE A BUNCH OF NEWS -- IF THEY ARE HARMED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION, THERE AREN'T GOING TO BE A BUNCH OF NEWS STORIES ABOUT IT IN THE WAY THERE WAS WITH KIMMEL WHO DID AN ADMIRABLE THING IN STANDING UP TO TRUMP.

THESE ARE NOT PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BECOME HEROES IN THE MEDIA.

THEY ARE PEOPLE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING BECAUSE THEY HAVE REAL VALUES AND THEY ARE STANDING UP FOR THEM.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE MILITARY BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE MORE ATTENTION- GETTING EPISODES IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS WHEN HE STAGED THAT KIND OF WALK OVER TO ACROSS LAFAYETTE PARK, WHICH IS IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, OVER TO THE CHURCH, ST.

JOHN'S AND HAD IT CLEARED OUT BY THE NATIONAL GUARD.

THE THEN CHAIR OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, GENERAL MILLEY, WALKED OVER THERE.

HE LATER APOLOGIZED IN AN ALL- CALL TO THE TROOPS SAYING HE WAS WRONG.

HE SHOULD NOT HAVE PARTICIPATED IN THAT.

SO THIS WEEK DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH PULLED IN SOME LIKE 800 SENIOR OFFICERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR THIS KIND OF -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS -- LIKE A GROUP CHAT AT QUANTICO AT GREAT EXPENSE AND, YOU KNOW, INCREDIBLE SECURITY RISKS HAVING ALL OF THESE SENIOR LEADERS IN ONE PLACE AND HE SAID THAT -- HE MADE HIS COMMENTS.

WE'VE PROMOTED TOO MANY UNIFORMED LEADERS FOR THE WRONG REASONS BASED ON THEIR RACE, GENDER, HISTORIC SO-CALLED FIRSTS AND THE PRESIDENT CAME ON AND SAID WE SHOULD USE SOME OF THESE DANGEROUS CITIES AS TRAINING GROUNDS FOR OUR MILITARY.

I WAS JUST CURIOUS HOW THAT WHOLE SCENE LANDED FOR YOU AND WHAT WOULD YOU DRAW FROM IT?

>> IF YOU WANT TO SEE SOMEONE UNQUALIFIED WHO WAS ELEVATED TO A POSITION THEY DIDN'T EARN ON THEIR BASIS OF THEIR RACE AND GENDER, YOU COULD LOOK AT THE CURRENT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WHO IS ALL OF THOSE THINGS AND HIS MAIN QUALIFICATION IS LARGELY HE IS A TRUMP SYCOPHANT.

TRUMP HAS ALWAYS USED THE PHRASING THOSE ARE MY GENERALS, BUT ACTUALLY THEY AREN'T HIS GENERALS.

THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, ELECTION ASIDE WHO ADMINISTERS THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, IT DOES NOT DECIDE OWNERSHIP OF THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THE OWNERSHIP OF THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CHANGE.

IT IS OWNED BY THE PUBLIC.

THE SAME IS TRUE OF THE MILITARY.

WHAT HAPPENED IS THESE PEOPLE ARE IN A CHAIN OF COMMAND AND THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW ORDERS, LEGAL ORDERS, THAT IS.

OBVIOUSLY THEY AREN'T OBLIGATED TO FOLLOW ILLEGAL ORDERS, BUT THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW LEGAL ORDERS, AND SO THEY CREATED THIS CAPTIVE AUDIENCE WHERE THE PRESIDENT AND THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST NEED TO PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER.

HERE YOU HAVE HEGSETH SAYING, YOU KNOW, THE MILITARY'S FOR KILLING.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO RULES OF ENGAGEMENT ANYMORE.

IT'S FOR MURDERING PEOPLE.

I THINK IT'S BIZARRE TO ACT LIKE THE LAWS OF WAR ARE A RECENT INVENTION OR SOMETHING WE CAME UP WITH IN 2020.

THEY ARE ACTUALLY HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD AND ARGUABLY OLDER THAN THAT, BUT WHEN THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE SAYS THE MILITARY IS FOR KILLING PEOPLE AND THE PRESIDENT SAYS WE'RE GOING TO SEND THE MILITARY INTO AMERICAN CITIES FOR PRACTICE, WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THE PRESIDENT IS SAYING I AM DECLARING WAR ON OTHER AMERICANS AND I EXPECT YOU TO KILL THEM.

THEY DIDN'T INTEND THAT.

THEY COULD HAVE EASILY CLARIFIED IT, BUT THAT'S WHAT THOSE TWO THINGS PUT TOGETHER MEAN.

>> I'M ASKING YOU HOW YOU FEEL THE MILITARY RESPONDED.

I'M ASKING YOU -- >> THE MILITARY IS OBLIGATED TO BE APOLITICAL AND THEY UNDERSTAND THAT.

THAT'S WHY THEY ARE PUT IN THIS UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION WHERE THEY'RE SAYING IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KILL AMERICANS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO USE AMERICAN CITIES AS A TRAINING GROUND, YOU SHOULD RESIGN.

THEY WANT TO PURGE THE OFFICER CORPS OF PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT WANT TO OBEY AN ORDER TO KILL AMERICAN CITIZENS.

WE COULD TALK ABOUT MILLEY.

THE PROBLEM THAT REPUBLICANS HAD WITH MILLEY ESSENTIALLY WAS THAT DURING THE PROTESTS IN 2020 TRUMP TOLD HIM TO GO OUT THERE AND SHOOT PROTESTERS AND HE SAID, "NO, I'M NOT DOING THAT."

AND AFTER JANUARY 6th HE WAS SAYING, "I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND."

I THINK THE PHRASE WAS CALLED WHITE RAGE AND REPUBLICANS WENT CRAZY BECAUSE WHAT THEY WANT IS A MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT WHO NEXT TIME TRUMP ATTEMPTS TO STEAL AN AMERICAN ELECTION, IF HE LOSES, AND HE IS CONSTITUTIONALLY BARRED FROM RUNNING AGAIN, BUT THE SUPREME COURT DOESN'T REALLY SEEM PARTICULARLY INTERESTED AT THE MOMENT WITH WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS, WHAT HE WANTS, WHAT THEY WANT IS A MILITARY THAT IS GOING TO BE WILLING TO BE USED AS A POLITICAL TOOL TO KEEP A PRESIDENT IN OFFICE WHO DOES NOT BELONG IN OFFICE.

>> WHAT I SAW IN THAT ROOM WAS A REAL UNIFORMITY OF PURPOSE AND VALUE BECAUSE THEY TO A PERSON ALMOST KEPT SILENT AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EASY I THINK FOR SOME OF THEM TO HAVE BEEN SORT OF LAUGHING OR CHORTTLING OR GIVING THE PRESIDENT THE REACTION THEY WANT AND I DO WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THEIR DISCIPLINE IN THAT MOMENT SPEAKS TO A VALUE SYSTEM THAT SUPERSEDES THAT OF SELF- PRESERVATION IN THE WAY THAT YOU HAVE LAMENTED WITH OTHER INSTITUTIONS.

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE THEY ARE PART OF THE GOVERNMENT.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT THESE ARE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SWEAR OATHS TO SERVE AND PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

THEY DO NOT SERVE OATHS TO SERVE AND PROTECT PETE HEGSETH OR DONALD TRUMP.

>> SO DID DONALD TRUMP AND PETE HEGSETH.

THEY BOTH TOOK THE SAME OATH.

>> THEY BOTH TOOK THE SAME OATH, BUT I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOT ONE FOR KEEPING TO OATHS AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW PETE HEGSETH VERY WELL, BUT I SUSPECT HE ISN'T EITHER, BUT I THINK YOU ARE MAKING AN IMPORTANT OBSERVATION THAT THEIR SILENCE WAS IN A WAY THEIR REFUSAL TO USE AS A POLITICAL PROP AND MANY MIGHT ACTUALLY AGREE WITH DONALD TRUMP AND PETE HEGSETH POLITICALLY, BUT INSTITUTIONALLY THE MILITARY AND IN PARTICULAR, THE OFFICER CORPS, IS ENCOURAGED TO BE AS APOLITICAL AS POSSIBLE AND I THINK THAT SILENCE REALLY REFLECTS THEIR INSTITUTIONAL TRAINING OF SERVING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THE PUBLIC, NOT A PARTICULAR POLITICAL PARTY AND THAT'S THE EXACT THING THAT DONALD TRUMP AND PETE HEGSETH WANT TO CHANGE.

THEY WANT THE AMERICAN MILITARY TO BE A PARTISAN MILITIA, NOT AN ACTUAL MILITARY THAT SERVES THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, ONE OF THE POINTS THAT PEOPLE MAKE WHO HAVE STUDIED AUTHORITARIANISM IN OTHER HISTORICAL PERIODS IN OUR CONTEXTS, ONE OF THE POINTS THEY MAKE IS THAT AUTHORITARIAN.ISM OFTEN COMES IN THROUGH LEGAL MEANS.

PEOPLE VOTE THEM IN THROUGH LEGAL RULES AND IT MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO VOTE THEM OUT.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> SO THEN THE QUESTION BECOMES WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

THE BURDEN IS ON THE PEOPLE TO DEFEND THEIR DEMOCRATIC RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S -- POLITICS EVEN IN AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES, POLITICS DOES NOT CEASE.

TO THE EXTENT PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING, THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE IT AND I WOULD ADD PEACEFULLY, YOU KNOW, NONVIOLENT PROTESTS, NONVIOLENT ACTION HAS BEEN VERY EFFECTIVE IN DISLODGING AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES WITH MEN WHO HAVE PLENTY OF GUNS AND ARE WILLING TO USE THEM.

AMERICANS HAVE TOLERATED AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES IN PARTS OF THEIR COUNTRY, YOU KNOW.

THE ANTEBELLUM SOUTH, MANY, MANY AMERICANS HAVE LIVED UNDER AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS FORCED AT THE POINT OF A GUN AND THOSE GOVERNMENTS FELL AND THEY DIDN'T FALL BECAUSE AN ARMY -- WELL, IN THE CIVIL WAR THEY DID, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE JIM CROW WAS NOT FELLED BY VIOLENT ACTION AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS -- THE PUBLIC, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, NEED TO UNDERSTAND IT IS WITHIN THEIR POWER TO PRESERVE THEIR DEMOCRACY, BUT THEY HAVE TO MAKE A CONCERTED EFFORT TO DO THAT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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